Jump to content
  • 0

Predicting the future


destrehandave

Question

Look into the crystal ball..  What comments will there be on this forum 1 year from now?

In the moment, ASA's direct drive / encoder mount technology has bested the competition, but how much long-term value does it bring to its owners?  Are direct drive motors, encoders, and outstandingly useful software programs the high point in mount technology?  What else must one consider besides the technology and implementation?

I'm assuming that most Astro-imagers have been around the block a few times, have had experience with multiple mounts, and are wondering what lies ahead. I've moved from a photo-tripod to an alt-az, to a fork, to a go-to, to a 'clock driven' goto, to a GEM, to a better GEM... and now I want my ultimate mount.  Coming from an AP900 owner, that's a pretty lofty goal.

Where is the intersection of Innovation, Value, and Usability?  What is the ASA competitive position, or more precisely, what things do ASA mounts do better than the rest, and where could it improve?  As a Software Engineer by trade, I have analyzed and coded hundreds of systems, and  found the following factors critical in long-term system viability:

1) The implementors must have a deep understanding of the domain; e.g, Astronomy and Imaging.  No questions here.
2) The solution must automate and/or significantly simplify the most difficult and challenging aspects of the system.  In this case, this would translate into a simple, near flawless polar alignment, and the creation, execution, and application of a model applied to both pointing and tracking.  Again, from what I gather, A+ for ASA here.
3) The users should be assured of a constant evolution of the system - a committment from the vendor - to protect the investment by  offering incremental improvements to the system as technology progresses.  Nothing comes free; other vendors charge a yearly subscription... I thnk it would be a win-win.

Some significant non-functional requirements would be things like convenience, flexibility, quality, and 'robustness'.  Since most of the bases seem to be addressed by ASA in spades, I'd like to discuss convenience.

If I were anointed "King for the Day at ASA", I would ask my engineers to produce a 'black box' interface to plug into the mount.  This box might even look suspiciously like the one that "other" European mount-maker produces.  It could be differentiated by not only containing the physical interfaces (focuser, power, ethernet, USB, etc), but also CPU, network capabilites, and secondary storage.    In essence, a computer without a monitor.  No ugly arrows here... It would contain all of the 'backend' programs contained in Autoslew, Maxim, and Sequence, but the 'inteface' would be via bluetooth to an iPad!  Essentially, it would be the 'server' that the iPad 'client' would use to communicate with the mount.

The iPad client app might have big buttons with captions like "Polar Align", "Tune Mount", "Take Image", "Configure Black Box", "Diagnostics", "Balance Mount", "GoTo Object", "Maintain Observing List", etc.  Again, all of the logic, even secondary storage such as flash drives, stored images, program logic ... Bluetooth, WiFi, etc... all on the black box, except for the Graphical interface.

I sent an email to ASA and was told that, at the very minimum, a tablet implementation was 'in the plans.'  I have also seen posts stating that Dr. Keller expends a significant amount of time and effort in a labor of love to keep his software relevant, correct, and up to date... so maybe this post is unnecessary.  I'm sure ASA and Dr. Keller have thought about this a few times.  

 

While the 'other guys' are busy creating bulky hand-held, wired devices to allow non-laptop use, ASA could again 'hop' ahead of the competition; perhaps leaving them so far behind the war would be over!

Think of it!..

1) Setup mount physically
2) Plug in the black box, enable blue-tooth.
3) Click your iPad Icon to connect.
4) Click "Polar Align", "Tune Mount", then "Create Model" and you are ready to go.

You might even be able to have a "Quick Visual Setup" mode, where you use an illuminated reticle eyepiece to quickly create your configuration for the night.  I don't have a crystal ball, but wouldn't it be fun if next year, everyone would be griping about "When will the Android version of the Software be released?"

 

Am I just "moonstruck?"  Am I mad?  Do I have a new disease called 'equatorial fever?"

What do you think?

Thanks for listening...
 

 

Destrehan Dave

Edited by destrehandave
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Couple of thoughts about the future development, even though it might be pretty much a question of different people having different preferences. A person having a mobile setup will probably value some features more than a person with a permanent setup, and maybe even using the setup remotely.

 

I wouldn’t mind being able to operate the mount without a computer but for me it wouldn’t add much value because I’d be using a computer anyway. There has been a lot of talk (by the 10Micron people) how great it’s being able to operate the mount without a computer. However, that holds only true if you’re taking pictures with a DSLR camera semi-manually or using it for visual. If using a CCD camera or operating your mount remotely a computer is a must anyway.

 

Another important aspect is the software. If using a hand pad only, it should include all the same functions included in the software package and it should be fully automated. Playing with a hand pad (or iPad)in the dark with semi-automated functions doesn't make much sense, especially if all that can be done easier and better with a computer.

 

ASA mounts are used (mainly) for imaging and I’d guess that most of the users are having CCD cameras. I would also guess that quite a few have permanent setups and are using the whole system remotely like me. For me the most valuable aspects are reliability and being able to automate the whole process from the beginning to the end. And if something goes wrong …being able to reboot and start everything from the beginning …hopefully without manual interference as much as possible.   

 

P.S. The direct drive technology is simply amazing :)            

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I would like an ultra-portable DDM mount. For my feeble constitution the DDM60 is too heavy for portable use.

I would like a small mount that could take an 80mm refractor with DSLR for taking to dark sites.

I suspect that getting encoders much smaller than those in the DDM60 might be a problem.

George

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Re-thinking, I guess if the software evolved to simply eliminate the mouse and enable 'Touch screen', that'd be terriffic.  I use SplashTop, and my big gripe is the miserable mouse.  It'd be nice to transmit the screen to the iPad, and type when you need to (like for a discrete value), but be able to tap the "OK"s and "Cancel"s by hand.

 

I remember when I transferred my old XP telescope control programs to Win 7, literally _nothing_ worked.  Seems that MS had changed the rules that no program could access ports directly, so I almost lost my mind until some post guided me to "XP Compatability Mode".

 

Astro-imaging is challenging enough without having to worry about platform issues.  On one hand, I don't expect ASA to be a "Microsoft Certified Gold Partner,"  but I'd hate to say, "Well, I can't upgrade to Windows 10 because Autoslew isn't compatible.".  That's the beauty of the black box.  Keep all the software entrails - the deep implementation; the weeds - localized.  Keep the GUI lightweight.

 

Software is never finished; only published. 

 

DD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Dave,

 

for me, the "destination iPad" must be an option only. The touch screen solution might appear very simple for the user, but I suppose even you would always like to know what's inside, what happens in the background. For a fair amount, I'd like to know exactly, what goes on behind the scenes.

 

You are right: Astro-imaging is challenging enough without having to worry about platform issues. However, the integration of all components of a complete and perfect astro-imaging platform might restrict users to components they do not consider optimal, or too much expensive for their budget.

 

To handle Autoslew, MaximDL, Sequence and even more programs in parallel is hard, but integration of Autoslew together with Sequence has been anounced and will be another good point against competitors. Even they are climbing the bandwagon with wireless services... but fail to avoid mechanical limitations and continue to sell ancient drive technology, mixed now with high resolution encoders (thus documenting unavoidable periodic errors).

 

Kind regards

Martin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Martin

 

You bring up some very interesting points.  First of all, "Even I" want to look under the covers to see what's happening with the mount at a low level... sometimes.  Specifically, when I am fine tuning my mount for an anticipated multi-object imaging session, or when attempting to perfect my process.  As a computer programmer by trade, I think of it as reading the outputs of a run-time log file, or running the program in the debugger.  This is an invaluable, critical tool to have at your disposal.

 

However, the ASA is an 'astro-imaging' mount first and foremost, and that comes with a price and/or engineering tradeoff in its current implementation.  My current  AP900 'ancient' drive technology mount, is incapable of taking unguided 10 minute exposures.. pretty much, period.  Perhaps I should say if there is any chance at all that it could do so, it would be with the aid of the as-of-yet unreleased APCC software package.  Personally, if you want a dedicated astro-imaging mount and did not wish to guide, you would avoid this mount. In like manner, if you want a mount that is simplest to setup for visual observation, you should steer away from the ASA.  I consider myself both an imager and visual guy, so my choice isn't quite as clear.

 

 For the sake of argument, let's say the AP900 is 'incapable' of doing 10 minute unguided subs.   It is, however, a complete joy to setup and use as a visual mount.  Align the polar scope to the iPhone app's depiction of the polar scope reticle, go to a star, sync and BINGO!  You are done.  Slew just about anywhere in the sky, and your pointing will be good enough to place the object in a low or medium power eyepiece.  So it can do both visual and imaging very well, but the limitation is you have to guide to get 10 minute subs.  PROS - Awesome quick setup for visual, very good guided imaging performance.  CONS - Can't do 10 minute unguided subs.

 

On the other hand, let's look at the ASA:  Obviously, this is an imaging mount, if not an imager's dream.  Break it out, align, execute the startup tasks on your laptop, and from what I gather, nothing can beat it for unguided 10 minute subs.  But if you want to use the mount for visual, you have to go through your normal imaging startup procedure, then add the eyepiece and rebalance the mount.  For the 'Visual / Imaging hybrid' type of observer: PROS - awesome, unguided imaging, fabulous, efficient drive technology, no PEC, and no worm gears to adjust. CONS - Visual setup is much more complicated than it needs to be.  The 'remediation' for the APs weakness is to use guided imaging; the remediation for doing visual on the ASA is to setup like imaging, then do further tweaking.  Just having to have a computer with the ASA might eliminate a lot of hybrid Visual / Imaging observers.  APs constraint of having to use auto-guiding technology seems to be a more reasonable answer to address its primary weaknesses, in my opinion.

 

I have several emails from leading software authors and bloggers who only care that a mount has a smooth, repeatable periodic error that can be corrected out, and a means to accurately track (with or without guiding).  A very famous astro-coder expressed his sentiment like this: "If it produces the desired results, I don't care if it's constructed with popsicle sticks."

 

The question is whether a hybrid Visual / Imaging observer could, would, or should purchase a mount that is the absolute best imaging mount on the planet, but whose use as a visual device suffers from the consequences of having to do a full-blown imaging setup with a laptop computer.  And let's not forget that the 10Micron GM1000HPS claims a somewhat less sexy but effective drive mechanism, but can be fully used as a visual setup without a computer in the field.

 

My hope is that ASA will hasten to develop and produce a workable iPad wireless solution optimized for visual observing.  Give me a little window showing how the laser should be aimed given my current observing location and time, and a polar alignment procedure requiring you center objects by using your eyeballs at the ocular.  Help me manage my observing lists and logs, and perform my slews.  In my opinion, that would a reasonable, radical, intuitive, and visionary competitive move to help us Visual / Imaging hybrid observers to the ASA corner.  It's just a matter of time before Software Bisque releases TheSkyX Pro for iOS.. why not create a little plug-in box between the mount and the USB port to allow it to use that product for visual use?  That would make the ASA THE mount to beat for hybrid observers, in this person's opinion.

 

Thanks for listening... clear skies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...