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This is a transfered topic from the ASA Yahoo Group.

 

Posted By: mattssporre Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:47 pm

Dear all,

I have recently gotten a lot of USB problems.

The mounts USB hub acts like a USB1.1 hub. The camera attached to the mounts USB
hubs supports USB2.0 and image downloads that used to take max 5s now takes more
than 30s.

I know the mount use the FTDI driver (serial to usb driver). So what I did
before (the problem is not new) was to

1. uninstall the mounts com port
2. disconect the mount (USB)
3. uninstall the FTDI driver (CDM20814-setup.exe)
4. Restart
5. Install the FTDI driver
6. Restart
7. Connect the mount (USB)
8. The drivers re-installs

One thing that complicated things was that I also have the OK3 focuser and the
flatman also running on the FTDI driver (so in the above I needed to uninstall
and unplug also those).

Now the above does not work anymore. The mount USB hub stays at USB1.1.

It is def the mounts USB hub, since if I take the camera and plug it directly to
the USB port in the PC (that the mount is connected to), USB2.0 works fine.

Does anyone recognize this problem? Solution?

BR
Matts
PS at present I am having more problems with the DDM60 and the N10 than there
are drops in a rain...

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Posted By: erwin_kats Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:35 pm

Matts,

I was having the same problem, and mostly even connection lost to the ccd with the internal usb hub in the ddm 85.

After a upgrade of the mount i do not have this problem anymore.

I also think the usb to serial is only for the mounts control and not for the usb hub ( this is the experience i have )

Kind regards, Erwin Kats

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Posted By: mattssporre Wed Feb 1, 2012 8:21 pm

Thanks for the info Erwin. With upgrade do you mean the firmware uppgrade?

BR
Matts
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Posted By: erwin_kats Wed Feb 1, 2012 8:27 pm

Matts,

Sorry for my not full complete information.
My mount has been upgraded from before may 2010 to after may 2010 model.
at that moment there was also placed a powered USB hub in the mount on my request  because the other model had a non powered usb hub.

Kind regards, Erwin Kats.
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Posted By: philipp_keller Wed Feb 1, 2012 8:42 pm

the hub is only a hub, it can't have anything to do with the mount or its
drivers.
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Posted By: mattssporre Wed Feb 1, 2012 8:53 pm

Ok,

So then I do not understand why the USB2.0 does not work anymore when I connect the camera via the mount. It works if I connect it directly to the PC (using the same usb port that the mount is connected to)?

Also, before I could make it work if I uninstalled the FTDI driver and installed it again.

The mount (usb to serial) and the internal usb hub shares the same usb port on the PC.

BR
Matts
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Posted By: bernd_eppinger Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:38 am

Hi, Matts,

As far as I know, the FTDI-chips are endpoints in a USB system, like USB-sticks, GPS, cameras, mouse etc. At least I am not aware of USB hubs made by FTDI, which means the hub is likely a separate chip in the mount. So I guess what Philipp wants to say is that the FTDI drivers should have no effect on the hub.

I find it strange that the hub first worked in USB2.0 mode, and now only works in 1.1. It is still the same hardware. I wonder if this is one of the typical WINDOWS problems with USB. At least for WINDOWS XP, I was able to solve a problem with an USB stick by the following procedure which I had found somewhere in a Microsoft Knowledge Base article:

  • In System Control, add the following environment variable: devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1
  • Start Windows Device Manager.
  • In Device Manager, select something like "View -> show hidden devices" (German Windows: "Ansicht -> Ausgeblendete Geräte anzeigen").
  • Unconnected devices should now be shown in grey.
  • In my case, I deleted all USB sticks, which was a large amount. In your case, with disconnected mount, you might see some unused "Standard USB Hubs" (or however they are called in English) under "USB controllers". You might try to delete them (right mouse button -> uninstall). Reconnecting the mount should again install one of them, and if you are lucky, it may have the right USB2.0 speed.

 

I don't know if that helps, I only know that it helps me sometimes with USB problems.

Best regards,

Bernd
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Posted By: mattssporre Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:00 am

Hi Bernd

thanks a lot - those sounds like useful tips. I will try them out tomorrow.

There is one I do not know how to do

In System Control, add the following environment variable:
devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1

Where do I find System Control?

BR
Matts
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Posted By: mattssporre Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:25 pm

Hi again Bernd

I found it out - the english word is Command Window and the line to write is

set devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1

I had a lot of hidden devices under USB (in gray). I removed them all, started
the mount etc and the different things (filter wheel, CCD camera, ASA
Elektronik, ...) re installed itself, but unfortunately the problem still
remains.

Thanks anyway.

BR
Matts
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Posted By: tomtom2509 Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:51 pm

Hi Matts,

I sometimes have also the same problem. It happend when I mixing USB 1.1.
devices with USB 2.0 devices. For exaple if I connecting my usb 1.1 filterwheel
first at the hub, it "downgrade" the hub to 1.1 and after connecting the camera
second, the hub still works in 1.1.-mode. So in such a case, I have to make sure
to connect the camera first an afterthat the filterwheel.
Very frustrating if you want go in a remote setup.
Even the circumstances, that it just happend sometimes, makes it more confusing.

BR Thomas
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Posted By: mattssporre Fri Feb 3, 2012 12:00 am

Hi Thomas,

Thanks, I will try that.

BR
Matts
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Posted By: philipp_keller Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:46 am

the hub does not need any drivers. It has some simple IC inside and simply
splits the USB cable in severak ports.
The FTDI driver is needed for the USB connection of the mount.
I suspect its some strange Windows problem but I would say the mount is not
guilty here.
Maybe the USB workload is to large and he slows down the camera ?
Did you try to turn on the mount but do not start Autoslew and then connect the
camera ? Does it show as USB 1 or 2 ?

Best,

Philipp
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Posted By: mattssporre Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:09 am

Hi Philipp

In 90% of the cases when I have had this problem Autoslew was not started, the
mount was powered (the camera uses the internal power of the mount).

The reason is that the last thing I do is to start AS, so I see this problem
(there is a notification in XP something like "this unit could work faster if
connected to a USB2.0...") before AS is started. I have also seen it in
situations when I am about to take darks (AS not necessary).

In addition it has worked before. A year ago there was no problems, then they
slowly started to appear and now I can not make it go away.

The first few times it happened I thought there was some error on the PC USB
port so I changed USB port on the PC (the cable from the mounts usb port to the
PCs usb port). The "ASA astroptik" installed itself and then it worked again,
but only for a few days, and I ran out of USB ports on the PC. Connecting the
mount to a PC usb port that the mount had previously been connected to just
resulted in the error right away. This was when I tried to connect the camera
directly to the PC and that always worked fine and my conclusion is that for
some reason, the internal USB hub gets downgraded to USB1.1, since the PC port
definitely is USB2.0.

I agree and would not be surprised if this was a Windows XP problem, so I will
check out some of Brends tip. As a backup plan I have my laptop that I am about
to reboot to a fresh installation (Vista is on now...).

BR
Matts
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Posted By: philipp_keller Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:07 pm

Hi Matts,

did you try to uninstall the FTDI Driver in the device manager when having the
telescope connected by right click on this device and select uninstall.
Also on the FTDI website there are some tools to completely remove the FTDI
driver.
I remember one case where I could not connect to the mount any more and it took
some time for me until I really removed the destroyed FTDI driver.
I still don't understand why the FTDI can have anything to do with the HUB but
its not always logic that helps you with Windows.

Also try with another PC.
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Posted By: mattssporre Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:59 pm

Hi Philipp,

thanks for the input.

What I normally do is to

1. open the device manager

2. open com/LPT port list

3. uninstall the com port the mount is connected to (right click and chose

uninstall)

4. Unplugg the mount

5. Run the CDMuninstallerGUI.exe (which is the tool you write about) to

completely uninstall the FTDI driver

6. Restart the PC

7. Run CDM20814_setup.exe to install the FTDI driver again

8. Restart the PC

9. Connect the mount (and watch how the different components reinstall

themselves, ASA Elektronik, USB, etc).


What I realize from Bernds post is that every time I did this I created a new
USB connection in the device manager (that is why I had so many hidden).
Probably because each new FTDI driver installment logically created a new USB
port and therefore the ASA Elektronik, etc re-installed itself on that new port.

In addition the OK3 focuser and the flatman also uses the FTDI driver, so when I
had removed the FTDI completely I also had to unplug the OK3 focuser and the
flatman.

I am left with

a. Check the power consumption (from Wolfgangs post). There are a number of ways I can do this.
b. Try using my laptop (just need to reboot it).
c. Try uninstalling the FTDI drivers (as per above) and also uninstall the
camera and filter wheel. Being careful to plug in the camera first (as per Tomas
post).

BR
Matts
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Posted By: ic2779 Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:19 am

Hello Matts
 
I´m pretty sure it is a camera power problem, I had that with a insufficient powersupply.
The camera the reverts from USB 2 to USB 1 for instance when you turn the cooler on.
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Posted By: mattssporre Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:25 pm

Thanks for the reply Wolfgang

It could be, but it does not explain why I could (before) make it to work again
after removing and reinstalling the FTDI drivers.

Similarly in the beginning, when the problem started to arise I could solve it
by changing USB port on the PC.

Also it works, using the same power supply if I connect the camera directly to
the PC (then again, I never tried this with the mount fully powered).

I guess I can check this by measuring the Amps and Volt of the camera when
everything is up and running.

BR
Matts

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Posted By: dale.liebenberg Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:30 am

Hi All,
Because of previous problems, I invested in an active USB exention cable to an
active USB hub on the mount. The DDM60 and 2 cameras and filter wheel are
connected to this USB hub.
Last night the mount failed with this message:

-------------04:46:56------------
Axis RA/AZ reported the following Problem:
WriteInt16 Error USB Nr. 5, 2 tries
-------------04:46:54------------
Axis DE/AL reported the following Problem:
WriteInt16 Error USB Nr. 5, 2 tries

etc

However, there were no failures on any of the other USB devices.
My USB connection on my mount is the flat connection and not a printer type. As
this is not a very solid connection, I suspect this connection.
Has anyone had a similar problem? A possible solution?

Dale
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Posted By: lukasdemetz Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:51 pm

Hi there,

after a long time (since november) where I have been working on my new observatory, I mounted today my upgraded DDM85XL.

Everything went smoothly, I also connected all cables and checked the connection with Autoslew – perfect.

After a few trials of slewing around I noticed that, when slewing at “higher” speeds (above 1-2°/sec) I seem to loose the USB connection after a few seconds. Autoslew then attemps to restore the USB connection (software unplug and replug, as they call it). The funny thing is, Windows doesn’t notice that the connection got lost (in fact it continues to display the device under the Devices).

Now, tomorrow I will go and do some troubleshooting on-site, but just in case if someone has an idea where I should look, you’re welcome J

My first thoughts were:

  • Too long USB cable (I have to use a 5m active USB cable)
  • Weird USB hub problem? (got a new USB3 hub, maybe it’s causing some trouble)
  • Some electromagnetic noise from the power source (which is, however, an original Siemens power source, 24V)

Thanks (and I’ll keep you informed)

Lukas Demetz

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Posted By: lukasdemetz Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:42 am

Alright, figured out that the active USB cable was the problem. I changed it with a “normal” 5 meter USB cable, and voila, it works.

I still get connection losses when the current the mount needs goes too high.
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Posted By: jbaj82 Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:34 pm

Hi Lukas,

How do you know that the USB has lost connection?

Regards,

Jeffrey
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Posted By: lukasdemetz Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:38 pm

Hi Jeff,

well, Autoslew tells me that it lost the connection and is attemping to restore it, by a “software unplug event”. After this, it sometimes is able to regain the connection, and sometimes I have to shut down Autoslew, power cycle the mount and then it works again.

But beware, I still have to test this under the real sky.

Best regards

Lukas
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Posted By: bernd_eppinger Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:40 am

Hi, Lukas,
 

> "I still get connection losses when the current the mount needs goes too high."


Do you have the possibility to find out if the power-supply goes into current limit for a short moment when you have a connection loss? Perhaps your power-supply might have an LED that signals the current limit? Measuring it with a digital voltmeter might be too slow, and I assume that you don't have an oscilloscope.

Another possibility might be a long (and/or high impedance) cable between the power-supply and the mount. This could not only cause voltage drops at the mount in case of high current consumption. In addition, if both your computer and the power-supply output are grounded to the Earth-connector of the wall-outlet, then it could cause a voltage-drop along the ground-connector of the USB-cable (and a high current) which is proportional to the current consumption of the mount. This voltage drop could interfere with the USB connection. The effect is called "ground loop".

High impedance connectors due to e.g. corrosion might have a similar effect as a high impedance cable, but as your equipment is new, I don't expect this to be your problem.

By the way, the ground-loop effect would be worse if your USB-cable is long and has a high impedance of the ground connector. Thick USB3-cables that are rated for high currents may be less sensitive to the effect, but if you have a ground loop, then the USB-cable is not the root cause but the symptom.


Best regards,

Bernd
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Posted By: bernd_eppinger Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:02 am

Hello, Lukas,
 

> "I use the original ASA cable, which is around 2 meters long. That's all, the power source is right at the pier base."


OK, that should be good enough. I, too, use this cable, and it works. Although I must say that I have a DDM60 which I have never seen drawing the specified 10A. And my power-supply has a floating output, i.e. its output is not connected to Earth.
 

> "Is there any way to avoid this loop? Could I just disconnect the grounding from the power supply?"


The ground loop effect would be strongest if you had a high impedance power supply cable to the mount, which seems not to be the case. There are other parts which could contribute to a ground loop, but for those, I could not easily explain why the effect should depend on the Mount's power consumption. So I would not see this as a likely reason anymore.

Anyway, to minimize those other effects, the mains cables from the wall-outlet to the mount power supply and to the computer power supply should be as short as possible. Besides, they should be connected to the same wall-outlet or to the same extension lead. As a last resort, it might help to find a low impedance ground at the computer (usually the chassis) and at the mount (I am not familiar with the DDM85) and connect them by a thick cable.

A ground loop only happens if both the mount power supply and the computer are connected to Earth. For the computer, this is usually the case. For the mount power supply, you can check it with an ohmmeter by disconnecting everything from the power and measuring the resistance between the negative output and the Earth connector of the power cord.

I would not recommend to disconnect or interrupt the ground connector of the mains supply cord, because in this case, you are no more protected against certain types of power supply failures. This can put your health at risk. I admit that privately, I disconnect it sometimes for a short time if I see no other way to make a sensitive measurement. In my company, I am not allowed to do this. There I have built a special circuit which has a similar effect for small signal, but still protects me reliably against failures, and I got a VGB approval for it.

Best regards,

Bernd
 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm having USB communications problems with the hub port on my DDM85.  Everything seems to be ok until I start taking multiple images in succession and then the dreaded 'software unplug' event occurs which, if I am using ACP to control the session, aborts the session script.  I am using 5m active USB cable extenders on both the Com (mount) port and on the Hub port.  It's the hub that always falls over.  I have tried a USB/Ethernet (Cat5) extender but it does not want to connect to the camera and focuser through the hub.  Does anyone have a working configuration with a 5m separation between the mount and pc?

 

Bill

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