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Future Direction of This User's Group


john32712

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Thanks Dietmar. That is the sort of information we need.

 

ASA needs to produce a clear route map for hardware evolution and software evolution, showing the planned timelines and which combinations of hardware/software will interoperate.

 

There should also be a published policy on version maintenance:

 

a. Which versions will continue to be fully developed and enhanced (probably only the current versions of each family of software?).

 

b. Which versions will be functionally stabilised (i.e. Not further enhanced) but will continue to have all bugs fixed and will continue to be supported (maybe last 2 major versions of each family of software?).

 

c. Which versions will only be supported on a "best endeavours" basis - with users encouraged to move to later versions at a discounted price.

 

This will ensure we all know where we stand.

 

Nigel

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Dietmar,

 

Thank you for the response! I am sure you realize your commentary is much overdue as there is a very high level of frustration (has been for some time). Much of this frustration can easily be resolved, and that was the reason I started this post. Rather than complain and throw stones, what can we do collectively to fix these issues? As a former CEO, I realized that many times I was unaware of critical components that could have insured a higher success for my company (had I been aware)... I believe that should be the purpose of this forum. That is, making you aware of our issues, frustrations, product feedback, and humorous mistakes we make. I would certainly agree, many of the problems I have personally encountered are my own fault due to lack of understanding or trying to understand certain procedures. But what responsibility does ASA have in making my DDM85 experience a positive one? Silence is definitely not the solution since the outcome is never positive. It is totally unacceptable for months and years to go by without any communications, especially with the existence of this forum. One push of the button is all it takes!

 

It has been noted multiple times, that calling to Austria does provide answers and solutions. Also, the ASA staff is courteous and helpful. However, with your global customers that does not always make the best sense, unless you have a major problem. Most of us would have no problem trying to resolve the minor issues (operator) on our own, but you must supply us with current and thorough documentation to accomplish this and this is a huge source of frustration.  I do have some ideas I would like to share on this topic

 

With full respect, I plan to submit a list of questions compiled from this user's group. I would request that the questions be posted and answered on this user's group by your staff. We will certainly understand if certain questions cannot be answered due to some company dynamics. If that is the case just state, "will follow up on this date ".

 

Finally, I believe every user truly wants ASA to be the most successful (profitable) company in it's genre. No mount comes close to the technology you have created and all others are 20 years behind using belts and gears. I have always compare it to using a prop or jet plane!  

 

Please help in turning this around... Thank you!

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BTW,

 

I would have no problem paying for an optional upgraded software solution. Especially if the interface was unified, modernized, and cleaned up. Software development is extremely costly and just because a customer purchased a product 5 years ago, that doesn't insure he get's every future supporting product for free. Case in point, I love the "Sky X" software. Every time an update comes out, I have to pay for the update. I do it gladly, since programmers get paychecks too! That basically goes for Maxim DL and every other program I own. Why would ASA be any different?

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BTW,

 

I would have no problem paying for an optional upgraded software solution. Especially if the interface was unified, modernized, and cleaned up. Software development is extremely costly and just because a customer purchased a product 5 years ago, that doesn't insure he get's every future supporting product for free. Case in point, I love the "Sky X" software. Every time an update comes out, I have to pay for the update. I do it gladly, since programmers get paychecks too! That basically goes for Maxim DL and every other program I own. Why would ASA be any different?

 

+1

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BTW,

 

I would have no problem paying for an optional upgraded software solution. Especially if the interface was unified, modernized, and cleaned up. Software development is extremely costly and just because a customer purchased a product 5 years ago, that doesn't insure he get's every future supporting product for free. Case in point, I love the "Sky X" software. Every time an update comes out, I have to pay for the update. I do it gladly, since programmers get paychecks too! That basically goes for Maxim DL and every other program I own. Why would ASA be any different?

 

I fully agree! The price you pay e.g. for Maxim DL and for SkyX per year/subscription is substantial considering the few patches that are provided.

 

Even if there are some problems that have not been fully solved with the DDM mounts we should not forget that the Autoslew/Sequence "solution" is quite advanced and has some nice features that are unique.

 

The most important topic for me regarding documentation/manuals is a good step by step guide on how to deal with common problems when setting up DDM mounts. A good example is the over current issue that probably most of the DDM customers might have run into (if you read the posts in this forum): Once you get the current stable for 30+ minutes for 3-4 sky positions you think that you have made it but then, with position 5 or 6 the current goes up again for whatever reason. Now things get tricky: it is extremely difficult to further optimize the system in such a state. The over current issue is the most limiting factor and the most difficult thing to solve for every sky position for long exposures in my own experience. Even autoguiding would not protect your exposures if such an error occurs.

 

The so important balancing tool should have a feature to check balance in different positions automatically and provide an integrated report on what to do on which side of the axis in a similar way like the polar alignment tool. (The mount could move around the sky at different speeds and measure currents to calculate this data). I think that this would speed up the final balancing process substantially! This would also be a unique feature that can't be provided with "gear and belt mounts".

 

Sorry for drifting a bit off from the main topic here! From my side this is just the most important wish for one of the next autoslew-updates or the 2.0 software and the manual(s) and should illustrate that not everything is "insufficient" as one might think when reading this forum topic. For most of the other things there is some kind of work around (at least with the latest beta versions) or the problems are minor. For me there is a big difference between nice to have features (e.g. support of FocusMax in Sequence) or essential features (e.g. good balancing/setup tools).

 

I am still convinced that there will be a solution for the major issues in the (near?) future because I have seen major steps forward since I own the mount (2012) with the "autotuning" feature that solved many problems as well as with the introduction/optimization of MLTP. I always liked my ASA mount and can't imagine using another mount anymore!

 

Thanks to Dietmar Weinzinger for clarification/inputs from ASA! 

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My impression had been that the issues with Autoslew were to be solved with a new software package. If Autoslew is to be brought into a fully operational well documented state with continuing support AND there is to be a new software release as well, then that is different. My fear was that Autoslew would be abandoned and existing owners would have to pay to get the new software even though the software they had already purchased had not really been brought up to an acceptable standard.

Ian

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Hi All, including all the team at ASA,

 

I operate my DDM mount remotely with complete automation. I have now used Autoslew for 2 years or so, and still I read the current manual with confusion regarding so many aspects of the software. I do use it successfully though most nights to do the basics. I haven't gone near the new "supermodel" stuff in the latest software as it is not yet documented and as I haven't had the time, and I am terrified of upsetting what is a reasonably stable situation with the mount that has been achieved finally.  I use CCDAutoPillot to automate my imaging all night as Sequence didn't seem to have all the features I expected in an automation program, at the stage I setup 2 years ago. This means, with all night robotic automated remote imaging that the MLPT feature has  not been  available to me sadly....I would have loved to see MLPT integrated with the CCDAutoPilot software.

 

I would accept  paying a fair price for ongoing support/software, but I have to say the software documentation has to be improved.

 

All the best,

Tim

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I also would be happy to pay for new major releases PROVIDED they are fully documented and supported.

 

I have no inside information but from what they have announced, it looks like ASA are moving towards 2 families of software: The legacy family (Autoslew, Sequence, etc) and the new 2.0 family. The new family will be fully documented (I hope!) and is likely to be a paid-for upgrade for existing users. On the other hand it looks like the legacy family will receive less attention, probably just bug fixes and some documentation updates in priority areas, but not a full documentation re-write.

 

It would be nice to have confirmation that this is the case.

 

Whether this is acceptable depends upon:

 

a. The feature set, quality and documentation of the ver 2.0 family.

 

b. How long it takes for ver 2.0 to be released.

 

c. The price of ver 2.0 for existing users.

 

d. Whether ver 2.0 can control existing ASA mounts and OTAs (at least ones that are 3 years old in my case).

 

Hopefully this will all be clarified at the official launch.

 

Nigel

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If I understand correctly, all new mounts will be equipped with absolute encoders, which will make at least part of the existing AutoSlew software obsolete.

So in order to be able to use new software (AS 2.0) which will be meant for the new generation mounts with absolute encoders, the hardware will need to be upgraded as well. A like situation occurred when ASA changed the encoders on the DDM60 mounts. Since mine was from 2009, they gave me the option to upgrade to the new standard. Of course I used that opportunity and send my mount back to ASA in 2012.

My surprise was great when I got it back after only two weeks and found out they did not just change the encoders, but also the electronics and connectors and even provided new cables!! Since that upgrade, I did not have any troubles with my mount except for the build-in USB hub, which I replaced myself with a new one, send by ASA for free...

So in my mind there is no doubt that they will do anything in their power to give all existing users an opportunity to upgrade to the latest standards for a more than reasonable investment from users part. Their service is of the same high quality as their products...

 

Waldemar

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If I understand correctly, all new mounts will be equipped with absolute encoders, which will make at least part of the existing AutoSlew software obsolete.

So in order to be able to use new software (AS 2.0) which will be meant for the new generation mounts with absolute encoders, the hardware will need to be upgraded as well. A like situation occurred when ASA changed the encoders on the DDM60 mounts. Since mine was from 2009, they gave me the option to upgrade to the new standard. Of course I used that opportunity and send my mount back to ASA in 2012.

My surprise was great when I got it back after only two weeks and found out they did not just change the encoders, but also the electronics and connectors and even provided new cables!! Since that upgrade, I did not have any troubles with my mount except for the build-in USB hub, which I replaced myself with a new one, send by ASA for free...

So in my mind there is no doubt that they will do anything in their power to give all existing users an opportunity to upgrade to the latest standards for a more than reasonable investment from users part. Their service is of the same high quality as their products...

 

Waldemar

That would be costly 3K USD per axis.

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Btw, It was a slight disappointment to me that the DDM85 it did not have them.

 

Not a show stopper but this would be a advantage remotely.     Right now I check via video before homing.

 

Besides homing I am not sure how it would effect other software/hardware improvements.  A Tablet  sounded like the big new feature.

 

Max

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  • 3 months later...

Well today is the 19th September, the promised date of announcement of ASA 2.0 when all our questions regarding documentation and future direction will be answered.

 

I hope that ASA will post full details here, or on the website, for the benefit of most of us who cannot be at AME.

 

Nigel

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Hi,

 

I just came back from the AME fair where ASA had short presentations what to expect from ASA2.0.

I hope I recall the most important parts correctly. The guys from ASA mentioned that detailed information (more detailed than what was presented) will be on the homepage within few days.

 

Hardware:

 

ASA has developed a new focuser with absolute encoders and a resolution of something like 1/7th micrometer. Due to the absolute encoders, there should be no hystereses or anything and therefore a defined position will be reached with extreme accuracy.

ASA has also the new version of the DDM60 on display (not working as the software is not fully finalized yet). Besides absolute encoders there is a whole bunch of changes:

Instead of the "swivel plate" the new DDM60 now has a more conventional wedge.

The counterweight shaft now has a bayonet-style coupling and rotates so that one could fix another instrument on the counterweight-shaft. The bayonet should enable you to easily attach or detach the shaft with all counterweights  which might ease setup without having to rebalance.

The dovetail plate has been improved to easily be able to attach a scope in exactly the same position - again for convenient setup. There seems to also be some kind of mechanism that should prevent a scope to slide out of the dovetail in case one loosens the screws.

 

The major difference however is that there is now a complete computer (or actually two) built into the DDM60. One sits at the lower end of the RA-housing which is slightly bigger and longer now. Another one sits underneath the upper part of the dovetail plate in a box that houses several usb- and power-ports, but also a camera that is used for easy polar alignment. The box at the dovetail plate is connected to the dec-housing with a small spiral cable, all other cabling is internal.

With the computers built into the mount, there is no need anymore for a computer that runs e.g. autoslew and sequence, as there is a completely new developed software installed that is intended to replace all the software components, that we usually use (autoslew, sequence, maximDL, FocusMax, PinPoint, ACP or CCD-commander, ...).

The communication with the "outer" world is based on wlan. Therefore  the mount can be controlled by e.g. smartphones, laptops or tablets.

 

ASA2.0 therefore describes the seamless integration of a completely new software with a significantly improved hardware.

This e.g. should enable a user to setup the mount very fast by moving the mount head to two or three positons. A picture will be taken with the internal camera and the mount calculates the polar misalignment. It than gives the user accurate descriptions how far and in which direction the fine adjustments have to be turned to get a good polar alignment. That is supposed to be way quicker than the current procedure.

Having absolute encoders eliminates homing and part of the tuning procedures and makes it easy to recover from a power failure or a shutdown.

All in all if everything works as advertised, setting up and working with a DDM60 will be way easier. My impression is, that ASA wants to attract customers that might at the moment be discouraged by the complexity of the system.

 

Beta-Test is about to start and it seems, that part of the software is still in development and the electronics in the final stages, therefore it will still take a few months before the new mount with the new software will be officially available (year end was mentioned).

 

I tried to find out what this new concept will mean to us current users with older hardware. The answers were quite vague. The new software was developed by a swiss guy with consulting from Philipp Keller and it seems, that at least until the new mount comes out, focus is to support the new mounts. Whether the new software will also support our hardware is unclear and seems to be in discussion at ASA. Autolew as it is will still be supported as it is used by many big observatories, but whether there will be a lot of effort put e.g. into the current Sequence seems to be questionable.

I also got no clear answer to the question whether there will be an upgrade path for our hardware. The DDM60 has too little space to be converted to the new encoders and built in computers, it is not clear whether there will be some kind of upgrade like an external box with the computer. It seems, that upgrading the DDM85 is less of a problem. ASA seems to be aware that there will be a lot of questions from existing users and it was  mentioned that e.g. a trade-in program could be one option to help existing users to migrate to the ASA2.0 world.

 

So all in all a quite impressive development that on the other hand side leaves a lot of open questions for us existing users.

I hope that ASA will be more active to discuss what's happening.

 

I'm quite sure that I missed some of the things mentioned, but hope that this gives you a first impression as everybody is eagerly waiting for news.

 

Best regards and clear skies,

 

Robert

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Interesting. I may be reading too much into it but it seems like ASA are moving to two product lines - one aimed primarily at the serious amateur (emphasis on DDM60 and mobility) and the other on professional (permanent static installations using DDM160 or the large alt/az mounts).

 

This may well be a sensible strategy as at the moment ASA struggles to properly support the amateur market, but where this would leave users who have invested in higher end mounts such as the DDM85XL but still classify themselves as serious amateurs I'm not sure.

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Interesting. I agree with Nigel that it seems that there are two directions going on - for permanently mounted systems, most of this would not add much usability (other than the absolute encoders, right). Reminds me a bit what Meade is doing with their latest mounts, also using a dedicated camera for alignment. Damn, at least they could say what happens with the existing customers with existing mounts...

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