lukepower Posted September 6, 2016 Report Share Posted September 6, 2016 Those two manuals are quite an improvement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0mbat Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 Interesting that the creation date on the incremental version is 6 days after this thread was started! Perhaps we have embarrased ASA into action?!? I would like to thank those who have already put so much effort into the wiki idea. I agree that it should remain independent of ASA. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john32712 Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 What you have accomplished here is an early release of the documentation they (ASA) have been working on. Technically they own all the rights to their printed literature and the ASA name. Without permission, you cannot use the name. Think of it as creating a website which details specifics about Volkswagen. If the site contains information deemed erroneous or inaccurate, the creators of the info are liable. Allowing you to do this will be ASA relinquishing certain corporation rights. It will be very interesting to see how ASA handles this. ASA has neglected this documentation for many years now, stopping you will make them look even worse than they already do, since you are now providing a strong solution to the problem... Kudos on creating a very interesting situation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukepower Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 John, if I look what people are writing on Tripadvisor about a hotel (I'm working in a hotel so I know the situation very well) I think you argumentation is not applicable here. In Europe several court cases gave Holidaycheck/Tripadvisor the ability to publish information and reviews about a hotel or restaurant without their explicit permission. This seems to fall within the right of free opinion. I would be very surprised if ASA would block us from creating and mantaining the WIKI. If they are clever - and I bet they are not stupid by any means - they would put one of their guys up to write more stuff into the wiki, thus creating a single source of information. At the end of the day we didn't do anything else than collecting what we know - both by experimenting and by following the forum (which is public!) - and write it into a central location accessible to everybody. Would I be the company (ASA) I'd be very glad that somebody who I don't even have to pay for is doing the job I was supposed to do eons ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 ASA cannot stop us producing a WiKi. They can stop us putting their documentation on it, or copying content from their documentation. I hope they won't do that. Ideally ASA will bring all their documentation up to date, expand it to meet the needs of users with different levels of experience, and translate it into multiple languages. If they do this then the WiKi could focus on tips, tutorials, practical advice and user projects. The formal documentation would be held on the ASA web site and thd WiKi can just link to it. However I very much doubt if ASA will devote the resources to provide and maintain comprehensive up to date documentation. Therefore the best solution for ASA and the users is for ASA to support us in the WiKi project by letting us build on their existing documentation and by providing advice. Worst case, if ASA will not support the WiKi, we may have to reverse engineer the documentation from our own collective knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldemar Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) Since there is allways the possibillity to make a ink to the ASA manuals, just as is done here, I don't understand what the problem would be... Edited September 8, 2016 by Waldemar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 If ASA manuals are complete and up to date then there is no problem at all - the manuals can be kept on the ASA web site and linked to from this WiKi. The problem is if ASA do not prepare proper manuals. I am hoping we will get a clear view from ASA soon about their documentation strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) I have created the Cassegrain/RC page - it is not complete. If we like the structure maybe someone could create a template "Hardware Page" so that we keep to a standard format for other hardware pages? Maybe someone else could create a similar Astrograph page (I have a Cassegrain myself so am happier doing the Cass/RC page). Edited September 8, 2016 by nakbrooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukepower Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 @Christer, could you install the following extension: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CiteThisPage It would allow us to insert references in the Wiki, so that we can keep a nice list of external or internal references. @ Nigel: I added a few links to your page, but otherwise I think it's fine. I would add a "References" title at the bottom for external references if applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john32712 Posted September 8, 2016 Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 Lukas, Please don't misunderstand my response. I am certainly on the side of the users, as it affects me also. Trying to figure this out solo has been very tough and I would not want anyone to have to go through what we all went through. I know several ASA users here in the states who have given up on ASA mounts due to the many issues discussed previously. I believe it is admirable what you guys are trying to accomplish here. To the point, something needs to be done! It is better to stop complaining and do something about it. Although I am not an international lawyer, in the States, permission from the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) would be required. There is no problem with opinions, but defining usage documentation would be. Again to clarify, I am not saying to stop the process, just saying to make sure you have an official statement from ASA.... Once you know where they stand, you can take a position. Finally, I concur on your statement, nice to have free labor on something that should of been accomplished years ago... Lukas, send me your personal email: Mine is john32712@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukepower Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 Hi John, no apologies needed, I fully understand what you are saying. I am sure that with the "wrong" company on the other side, this could end up in some risky endeavour, and I appreciate that somebody is appointing this. I simply do not believe that ASA would be so stupid to block this user Wiki. It is the cheapest way of solving some pressing problems on the documentation side. Or look it this way: How many new ASA mount owners were on the verge of selling the whole thing and giving up before they found this forum and got help from other users? Writing to ASA support *can* work, but the delay there is somethimes not understandable. With one of the other systems I am working with the guys who made the OTA helped out during the night remotely via Teamviewer to collimate the thing - that's what I call service. So, if ASA gets a nice documentation for free, written by the users, the least they should do is tolerate this. Personally I think that if Nigel didn't mail DIetmar (which was a good idea, btw) they wouldn't even notice there is a User-driven wiki coming up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 Once we have a response from ASA on their attitude towards the WiKi then we can sort out the legalities. I'm also not a lawyer, but provided we don't durectly copy documentation owned by ASA without their consent I do not see that we are doing anything illegal. If we are providing "advice", not formal documentation, then we should be safe, although we probably need to have a very clear disclaimer on the WiKi saying that all advice is provided "as is" and the WiKi authors and operators are not responsible for any loss or damage caused by following it. Do we have a lawyer in our group who could suggest some wording that would work in at least the USA and Europe (and hopefully other major ASA markets)? This wording would need to be on the WiKi home page and also be part of the terms and conditions that users must agree to when they register on the WiKi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 This topic is getting very long with multiple sub threads. It is also a bit uncomfortable using the ASA forum to discuss the details of the WiKi and policy and legal issues concerning ASA. Should we have a separate discussion forum where we can exchange ideas on WiKi structure and content and also on how we might form a Users Group? Does MediaWiki have a discussion plugin that we could use? Those users who want to be active in building the WiKi could then use the MediaWiki discussion area and we could keep this thread on the ASA forum for informing the wider community about progress. (Obviously everyone can also register on the WiKi if they want to see the User Group discussions there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0mbat Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 I am not a lawyer either but surely wording something like I have written below would be adequate for now. If there is a lawyer amongst us then I am sure he/she could do better. This wiki is prepared and written on a voluntary basis by the community of amateur ASA equipment users based entirely on their experience as users of the equipment. It is NOT official documentation prepared by the manufacturers of the ASA equipment and in no manner should it be read or interpreted as originating from or being approved by ASA. Users of this Wiki and the information contained within it do so entirely at their own risk. No guarantees of accuracy or usefulness of the information contained in this Wiki are given or implied. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 Reads well to me Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) I see there is a Forum plugin for MediaWiki called WikiForum. I have no idea whether it is the best option or how stable it is but it might be worth considering for inclusion in our Wiki. Ideally we need two forum categories - one to discuss the evolution of the wiki and one to discuss the formation of a User Group. Maybe someone more knowledgable could investigate? Edited September 9, 2016 by nakbrooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukepower Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 Ian, that wording sounds good. Nigel, I guess it isn't too bad to work with that plugin. Christer would have to install and set it up, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristerS Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 @Christer, could you install the following extension: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CiteThisPage It would allow us to insert references in the Wiki, so that we can keep a nice list of external or internal references. @ Nigel: I added a few links to your page, but otherwise I think it's fine. I would add a "References" title at the bottom for external references if applicable. Lukas, Have no added the CiteThisPage, but it dont support wiki version 1.23 as we are on, need 1.25+ will check for a update Added you as administrator Anyone else want to be admin? /Christer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristerS Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 Hi All, Added Ians suggestion to "Website disclaimer", the user can read befor register, also found som test on the web for the following pages, feel free to update the pages! Terms and Conditions Privacy policy Will check for a forum plugin /Christer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertp Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 Hi, the german AME fair takes place tomorrow and I hope to be able to talk to the ASA guys. Besides asking for the permission to use ASA documentation in the wiki and trying to understand what their view of this groups great effort to create decent documentation is - is there anything specific you want me to adress? Best regards and lots of kudos to what has been already achieved in terms of wiki structure and content, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 My questions would be: 1. Are you supportive of the idea of an ASA Users Group to represent the interests of ASA users and provide a focus for interaction with ASA? 2. Are you supportive of the concept of a Knowledge Base (the wiki) and will you allow existing documentation to be used to help us author content? 3. On ASA's own web site there seems to be no single source of documentation (e.g. ACC does not asppear to be documented anywhere). Can ASA please put the latest versions of all their documentation in the "downloads" section of their web site so that we have access to it. This is particularly important if ASA are not willing to let their documentation be added to the wiki. 4. Does a plan (with dates) exist for updating and completing ASA's documentation? Are the 2 Beginners Guides recently released for Autoslew the start of a new wave of documentation or just one-offs? 5. Can ASA publish a "route map" showing the direction they are planning for both hardware and software? 6. Do ASA have a serious commitment to amateur users or is their strategic focus now on large-scale telescopes for professional users? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakbrooks Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 I've started using the Discussion tab of each page for making suggestions for changes to pages where I think it might be a good idea to add/change something but I don't have the knowledge myself. I think it would be a good idea if we all use these Discussion tabs for making suggestions for new content if we're not able to create the content ourselves and also for discussing major changes to a page so that major changes are only made when a consensus is reached. This is the way it works on Wikipedia. Obviously this should not stop people making minor changes, creating new pages or filling in gaps in existing pages if they have the knowledge to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukepower Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 The Discussion tab's are indeed a very nice feature. Completely agree to Nigel. As per Robert going to AME, I guess the roadmap question would be very "hot". As well as the documentation one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpze Posted September 9, 2016 Report Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) I am following this interesting discussion. I made a 5 itteration PA following the new tutorial, works very well. I have made a shortlist of all the steps for new beginners; How to Polar align your telescope setup with DDM85 (60?) with incremental encoders. Start Autoslew Motor ON Clear config Homefind Start CdC (or other planetarium) Synch on Star Set new home pos Start Sequence Chose autopoint - 3star east PA Load pointingfile in Autoslew Calculate - choose for Polar Align Center a star near meridian (DO NOT SYNCH) Choose Polar adjust Adjust Alt/AZ screws on your mount Repeat this until you are satisfied with your Polar Align After this, you have to reset the config, synch a star, set a new home position and you are good to go to do a pointingfile in sequence. (or manually) - i have also wondered (don't find this info in the manuals) what "save parameter" actually saves in AS? Is it motor parameters and such? Does it save the home position? - the button "view configuration" does not work, maybe not the right part of the forum to discuss, but what is it for? /Daniel Edited September 9, 2016 by Corpze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted September 10, 2016 Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Hi All, I think it would be better not to ask the last two questions on Nigel's list. I can't think of any company likely to answer #5, and #6 is well covered by #2. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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